Curse

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Jun 01, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

i dont agree with nerfing the necro hexes, but makeing the monk non-elites better, not toooo good that it makes the necro useless for that kind of thing hah, but maybe change the holy-viel back to what it was...

Nekretaal · Jun 04, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

wouldnt a nerf to melandru's avatar.... which is problematic in its own right... shift the balance of power back to conditions? a 4s recharge blind is a 90% shutdown, which by itself is the combined worth of two hexes.

It'd open up more variety in the metagame and hexes would again be balanced against conditions.

bhavv · Jun 05, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I totally agree. Most of the options for hex removal are elite.
5 recharge: Divert Hexes [e]; Blessed light[e]; withdraw Hexes[e] (total crap); signet of removal
7 recharge: remove hex (2 cast)
8 recharge: Expel Hexes[e]
10 recharge: reverse Hex; shatter Hex; Hex Eater Vortex[e]; empathic removal[e]; Contemplation of Purity (conditional)
12 recharge: Holy Veil, Deny Hexes; smite hex
20 recharge: Convert Hexes; Purge Signet (2 cast); Inspired/Revealed Hex;
45 recharge: Hex eater signet (touch range)

I would suggest the following changes to these skills:

[skill]Withdraw hexes[/skill] Reduce cost to 10 to keep it the same as the other ones, remove the skills inherant 5 second recharge to instant, and make the hex removal all allies in earshot. This would remove every hex from the party, but most likely take 30 seconds to 2-3 mins to recharge, so it would be balanced.

[skill]divert hexes[/skill] - Completely take of this skills Condition removal FOR F***S SAKE!!! We already have RC, Why on earth does a super hex removal skill that removes 3 hexes and heals for so much for each also have condition removal????

[skill]Blessed light[/skill] - Increase the heal to something around 155 at 16 DF.

[skill]Remove hex[/skill] - Buff to 1 sec cast

[skill]Reverse Hex[/skill] - Buff the recharge back to 7, keep the 1/4 sec cast

[skill]Convert hexes[/skill] - Reduce Cost to 10, recharge to 15. Change armor gain to conditional per rank in prot if a hex is removed, to something like 5...24, and reduce the armor gain duration to 16 seconds at 16 prot.

[skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Smite hex[/skill][skill]Deny hexes[/skill] - Buff all to 10 sec recharge

[skill]Empathic Removal[/skill] - Buff to 5 sec recharge

[skill]Signet of removal[/skill] - Remove the 'ally must be enchanted' requirement

[skill]Hex Eater Signet[/skill] - Reduce to 30 sec recharge, Change to Target ally + adjacent

[skill]shatter hex[/skill] - Reduce cost to 10e.

[skill]hex eater vortex[/skill] - Remove a Hex from target ally. If a Hex removed in this way all allys lose the same hex, and foes near those allys take 30...102 damage. The same foe cannot be struck more then once.

[skill]expel hexes[/skill] Just to balance it a little with the the speed of these other buffed removals, reduce recharge to.... wait for it.... 7 seconds

.

[skill]inspired hex[/skill][skill]revealed hex[/skill] - Revert the energy gain to the same as what it was during Prophecies to leave these open as more attractive hex removals for monks, and to offset the 20 sec recharge.

[skill]Hexbreaker Aria[/skill] - Does anyone use this? No they dont. Reduce Cost to 6A, buff the removal to trigger of any skill.

IMO these would finally balance the full line of hex removal skills, and Izzy needs to be sacked if his job is meant to be balancing GW skills.

Taki · Jun 05, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

I agree somewhat with many of the monk suggestions but I don't think that tweaking removal skills only will make this puppy any less ugly. Hexes and possibly their mechanics needs to be looked at as well.

Before Nightfall and the faction hex buffs necros had severely limited and boring roles outside of 'gimmick trash' builds. They still do, in fact. And while you can condemn players for running these trash builds you can't deny that they are an effective alternative option. ANet doesn't want to remove options from the game and has stated publicly that they are afraid of repeating this same mistake again so take an overly cautious seat behind balancing. Soul reaping is the latest and greatest case of that.

This cautiousness has probably played a factor in the long down time between skill and game updates but when an 'option' is causing gameplay to become dirty, degenerate, and downright disgusting - as was the case with Ritualists - someone from ANet needs to pull the panties up and take action. Granted hexplay is more difficult to get a hand on than a few abused skills but it should not have been allowed to linger mostly untouched for so long.

On the other hand though, why even waste time on a game you want to die so that players migrate to your new project anyway. A new project where you can get all the shit you didn't get right the first time done properly.

Saider maul · Jun 05, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Although Hex is Quite effective now It is not IMBA. True Monks should have a little bit more versitility in hex removablity but up until late faction/ early nightfall many Players among the Meta were crying for more userfriendly hex play. I personally dont see many issues with it. Everyone cries for soulreaping nerfs and i agree that SR should be removed from minion/spirit death that you dont control, however aren't the necro's supposed to be the masters of hex spam and anti melee and Mesmers anti caster with Finess of the hexes?

No matter what you do, no matter what is changes everyone will find something to complain about when it comes to Styles of play they do not like.
The worst part is most of who complain about these things abuse the hell out of them. Isn't that hypicritical?

IMO if you lose to hex pressure with a strong team build then someone on your team failed at their job. The error could have been a number of things. Shutdown in wrong order, Wrong target selections, Bad skill play, Failure to split at proper time etc.
This Skill bars are nothing more then a control panel for a virtual machine and 90% of the time problems with a machine derive from operator error.

True Anet has about as much sense in Skill balance/game mechanics as one of jerry's kids in a spelling Bee. However adjusting every skill in the game is not the answer.

I Think there is alot more to take action on then strictly hex pressure. perhaps a slight adjustment for versitility anets part and some much needed practice on the players part.

Kaida the Heartless · Jun 05, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

My guild runs a holy veil, a purge, and a ranger to fight against hexes and we do alright. I think the problem, more or less, lies in cover hexes. It is very hard to call important incomming hexes when you dont know who the enemy is targeting, not to mention that you have 1 second to remove the hex with a 1 second cast skill (er...) before it is covered.

ISO: 1/4th cast Hex Removals?

TheOneMephisto · Jun 05, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

IMO if you lose to hex pressure with a strong team build then someone on your team failed at their job. The error could have been a number of things. Shutdown in wrong order, Wrong target selections, Bad skill play, Failure to split at proper time etc.
This Skill bars are nothing more then a control panel for a virtual machine and 90% of the time problems with a machine derive from operator error.

See, there's a problem with your assertion that if you lose to a hex pressure build then you are the ones that made the mistakes. The problem is that the hex pressure build doesn't make most of those mistakes simply because hexes are so much easier to play. Lower-skill players can defeat better players than themselves simply through the fact that hexes are powerful, but the problem is that they are powerful no matter what the skill level of the players are.

Also, splitting doesn't really work against hexes due to the fact that they usually have a warrior/ranger/monk runner combo that can easily defend against any viable split.

Saider maul · Jun 05, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

The problem is not in the covers. and Skills used to combat hex stacks will dig right thru the covers. Most of these cries come from bordom of current meta or lack of capability.

Sorry but my exp in meta has been for about a yr now in top 300+ so facing " New " or " less experienced " players is not apart of my perception. So plain and simple they should either have known better or should have taught the recruit better.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 05, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

The problem is not in the covers. and Skills used to combat hex stacks will dig right thru the covers. Most of these cries come from bordom of current meta or lack of capability.

Sorry but my exp in meta has been for about a yr now in top 300+ so facing " New " or " less experienced " players is not apart of my perception. So plain and simple they should either have known better or should have taught the recruit better.

The problem is that you can't use skills to cut through hex stacks when you have crap like faintheartedness going around. A 30+ duration hex that destroys a warrior's DPS on an 8-sec recharge? It's almost impossible to keep your offense clean when 3 skills (faint, reaper's, parasitic) can cut straight through any removal attempts that you make. And that's only half of a hexer, when normally you're not only dealing with half a hexer, but also a mel derv spamming AoE eviscerate, everlasting migraine screwing your casters, degen hexes flying everywhere screwing up removal attempts, single removals being useless, and on top of all of that, none of your melee or even your ranger can hit anything through all the crap, and your opponent has a split that can easily defend against anything you send.

Sorry, that began to rant. However, the problem isn't with covers, the problem is that for 15 energy, a necromancer can force a warrior into less than half capacity for half a minute and make single removals useless while he's at it, and he can repeat this every 8 sec. The problem is that illusion mesmers can have hexes that not only last forever and make casters almost useless, but also last forever just by the use of a stance that they're already specced into. Covers only accentuate the problem by making single removals useless, but the real problem is debilitating hexes that last forever, are cheap, and can be spammed.

BTW, read Ensign's post in his thread for the best analysis of hexes I've seen.

Saider maul · Jun 05, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I have read his post and I do understand he speaks from proven experience however I do question his motives on several suggestions at times.
I am Far from new to the game. and again. I have both been able to crack a hex pressure with teams i have been in and have been cracked running hex pressure. for the most part it boils down to who made the most mistakes at the wrong times. I play necro and fully understand its capabilities.
and atm your talking american Hex pressure. How do you think this will effect Euro hex? Will you scream SV and Powerblock need nerfed (SV again) because it creates a better shutdown on your monks?
I agree faintful should be 10sec rechargejust to align the casting order and parasidic bond is fine as is dispite what may be thought. you let any hex pressure meet a team with 1 purge, 1-2 single removals and an expel or a divert and you have your defense vs hex at the cost of 3-4 total skills across your team build.
You use just as many skill slots to counter conditions as you do hex if not more so at times. Will you cry for a nerf to RC as well if hex is hit again and condition pressure comes back?

Also the monk runner has phased out for the most part and been replaced with either E/rt or an old school E/mo Heal Prodigy.

I understand your trying to acheive a form of balance but for the most part people are suggesting changes that conform to their individual Play styles.
This does not constitute true balance.

I guess to each their own. I just see it as ya win some and you lose some. The losing team will always cry " the bat is corked " or " the dice are loaded " or " We want them tested for steroids " etc.

My question is when do ya stop crying about something that could use a slight adjustment but ya really just need to get better at playing vs that strategy/ build mechanic. myself included.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 06, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saider maul

I agree faintful should be 10sec rechargejust to align the casting order and parasidic bond is fine as is dispite what may be thought. you let any hex pressure meet a team with 1 purge, 1-2 single removals and an expel or a divert and you have your defense vs hex at the cost of 3-4 total skills across your team build.
You use just as many skill slots to counter conditions as you do hex if not more so at times. Will you cry for a nerf to RC as well if hex is hit again and condition pressure comes back?

So you're saying that a team should be forced to bring an elite and 3 other skills just so that they can defeat a lower-skill team than them?

I don't have a problem with conditions because conditions are short-term shutdown, and therefore take some skill to use. Most blinds and cripples not only are short, but are guaranteed to be removed extremely quickly by cheap, fast-recharging removals.

Hexes are not the same (besides some that I like, like freezing gust and diversion). Hexes are skills that you hit 1-2-3 on a character every 8 sec and cut down their effectiveness by over half. With conditions, you can't simply blind or cripple a character and leave him while you go do the same to others, as the removal/duration simply won't let you do that (maybe pre-nerf bsurge). With hexes, you can simply hit 1-2-3 on a character and be sure that only a divert or a purge will be able to effectively remove your hexes, of which divert is rarely used due to it's inflexibility and purge has a pretty long recharge.

I know that it's possibile to break hex teams, however, the fact is that hexes don't reward skill, which is bad for the game. You want a game that has skilled players being able to really stand out due to skills that really reward skill, skills like diversion and gale, that are useless when used by a bad player but can be gamechanging when used right. Most hexes aren't like that. They're simply overpowering on any skill level, and don't really gain that much as the player gets better. That isn't good for the game.